With the full understanding that I am opening up to potentially fiery and racist feedback, I am hoping to comment on an issue that I believe deserves very little attention—and that is the inescapable furor surrounding the construction of the so-called “Ground Zero Mosque”.
I try to pay attention to actual news stories on a very minimal basis, because they are too often tainted with a poisonous political favor and unfair endorsement of other groups. But as my friends and family realize how often I balance fairly many issues clearly in my regular “Deuteronomy 4:4” feature, they encouraged me to comment.
That is why I wrote this.
In keeping with Cicero’s doctrine that a compelling speaker need make a story that only resembles the truth, as opposed to actually being truthful, firebrands have blown this story out of control. Just as the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, Roman, nor an empire, to use Voltaire’s words—this “Ground Zero Mosque” is not on Ground Zero, nor is it actually a Mosque.
Okay, maybe it has a prayer space, in addition to more pronounced community spaces with myriad purposes, which seem to greatly outnumber said prayer space. I cannot list them all here. However, its primary function is more similar to a compacted Roman Forum than a house of worship.
Would I call the Roman Forum a Roman Temple? Most certainly I would not, whether worship spaces were present there or not. The inclusion of the prayer space and the “mosque” label invokes images of cultural dominance that the words “community center” would not possess. And which word or words do you hear to describe Park51 more often?
Instead of informing, it seems that newscasters seem more intent on manipulating people on puppet strings of fear and guilt. Knowledge of facts bestows reason. Pathos does not.
Luckily, the Interfaith Justice League informed me via e-mail about the issue before any biased reporter did. Many other sane sources, including my own father, noted that it was a mosque by the same means the Jewish Community Center of Greater New Haven is a synagogue. In other words, it is no such thing. And even if it were, its role as a solely religious function is minimal.
The biggest problem is one that I really have not heard yet, but it seems so obvious: it has not been built yet, and ultimately its true function, which will come about by means of its execution, will come forth. Whatever it is on paper, it does not instantly equate to what it will be in space until people enter it.
Right now it seems that any article on the web that posts on this topic will become rife with hateful remarks preaching ignorance and prejudice on all sides.
I am no Islamist, and I cannot judge what makes a swimming pool or a theater “Muslim” until someone teaches me. But I will wager that if it belongs to everyone, and hopefully it will, then it can teach tolerance that will make cruelty throughout the world vanish, at least on some level.
Any true problems can only arise with the location after it has been in use for some time. But until then, given my naïve understanding, I hope that the site will be open to people of all faiths and opinions, and each person will be told, in the words of the late Shel Silverstein, “come sit by my fire, for we have some flax golden tales to spin”…ones of a better future with fewer generalizations, attacks, and hateful causes.
22 Comments
J. de Bruijn
But a mosque IS a community center, and a community center with a praying part is a mosque. Besides that, they call it a mosque themselves : http://www.park51.org/facilities.htm Read it, point 8. (And elswhere it can be read that the mosque will be on the top floors, of course. (Why of course? What do you think?))
What I cannot understand is that muslims do not speak out on the following: What do islam say on building something somewhere that can be seen als insulting, offending or offensive by others? The catholics relocated a convent some miles away from Auschwitz when jews felt disrespected, so what does the islam teach in this kind of situations? Why don’t muslims explain that?
Besides that, what is the reason to build the mosque there if the same building could easily be moved 1 mile or so. Muslims themselves have said that there is no intention correlate it with that spot (ground zero), so what is the problem to relocate it?
Hannah Bailey, VA
J. de Brujin: In my opinion, the Muslim community behind the mosque is trying to make a point: That all of Islam, and all of Muslims, can’t and shouldn’t be blamed for 9/11. And to make that point, they’re deliberately building a mosque nearby Ground Zero. After all, the only reason that could be insensitive is if one believes that Average Joe Muslim, or their Muslim faith, has a connection to the 9/11 hijackings.
Anyways, I find this situation really similar to the Muhammad cartoon fiasco. In both cases, the groups were trying to make a good point (religion shouldn’t force us to censor ourselves, a large group shouldn’t have to apologize for the actions of a few) managed to do nothing but offend the other side, and while their actions were (and should be) legal if we want to call ourselves free, they’re also ultimately stupid and insensitive.
J. de Bruijn
It may be that not all of islam cannot be blamed, that is why I formulated the question as follows : ” What do islam say on building something somewhere that can be seen als insulting, offending or offensive by others?”. This question holds, I think, even when the advocates of this mosque want to make the statement that you refer to.
I cannot grasp the reasoning that it should be build near (or at) ground zero, first: why is it necessary to make that statement in terms of architecture, and second, for making the statement that not all islam can be blamed for its religious intolerance, it would be much more convincing when islam (all islam) offered the possibility for building a cathedral in Mecca, like the catholics did when they permitted building a mosque in Rome.
(P.S. in dutch the ij, in this sequence, is regarded as one letter)
Jared Gimbel
ALL Islam? Didn’t Muhammad himself say that his own community will never agree on anything?
Perhaps Islam should not be blamed for the state of affairs in Mecca as you describe, but rather the Saudi Regime. Rome (with the possible exception of the Vatican) and Jerusalem are both controlled by secular governments. I cannot say that with confidence about Saudi Arabia.
Having spent half a year in Jerusalem myself, I feel that if a megalomaniacal royal family took hold in that region, then so many opinions of people of all faiths would be ignored.
In many respects, countries hold more power than religions do. The religion will bend its will to the regime, as it was made to do since the days of Sumer. Regardless of what is written in the Qu’ran or the Hadiths, reinterpretation can take place. It occurs in ALL religions. No exceptions.
I would also hesitate to say that a stable law code would recognize iffy terms such as “insulting, offending, or offensive”. Blasphemy is described in terms of Divine feeling, but going back to my first point about Muhammad–his community, he noted, will not agree on anything.
Neither will any other, for that matter.
Jared Gimbel
Besides, I should also point out that the link you provided as “proof” that it is called a mosque is…stretching it. It is listed as a community center FIRST, with a mosque being ONE component that isn’t even at the top of the list!
It is my understanding that important things generally are listed first, and a general idea before subordinate ones. In keeping with this, my original idea holds.
Even if the prayer space is at the top, it is to accord the service of the One God the highest honor. People of all faiths will not find that part equally useful. Putting it in the middle or somewhere more easily accessible would be bad planning.
And why does everyone ignore the notion that the area was previously used ONLY as a prayer space?
Daisy
Please see the website for Islamic Pluralism – they have an article there which shows that the plan of the building is actually that of a mosque.
Besides, I feel some important issues have been grossly neglected in this uproar.
First, Imam Rauf has been reported to have been giving extremism-oriented speeches and his finances are not in order (please see the website of Investigative Project on Terrorism).
Besides, he has ignored the fact that the 3 Abrahamic religions are not the only ones existing in the US. There are non-Abrahamic religions as well as many shades of non-religious ideologies in the US.
A proposal to build inter-community dialogue is most welcome and protecting the rights of the minority groups in a democracy is fine. But the responsibility for inter-community dialogue should not be given to an extremist person. Nor should the rights of the minorities be determined by the extremist sections in that group, when a large number of democratic Muslims have clearly opposed Park51.
The US Govt is not doing a favour to the Muslim population of the US by giving right of passage to the extremist voices amongst them. It will do well to protect the right of the democratic Muslims who don’t want Park51 and should not allow the project to go on.
Treating this as the personal religious freedom of a private individual on his personal property is also grossly wrong.
Imam Rauf never said he was building a private residence or a place for his private religious activity. He said he wanted a community centre for engaging the community. And the community – the democratic Muslims and the non-Muslims – doesn’t want it. In this event, his project should not be allowed to go on.
Those who support the project in the name of religious freedom of the minorities have actually attempted to suppress the voices of the democratic Muslims. They don’t realise that the Muslim community is not homogeneous. There are different shades of Muslims around.
It only shows their own ignorance of Muslim society.
Instead of indulging in populist politics and supporting an extremist Imam, they should support the democratic Muslims who are against Park51, if they truly cherish the American democratic values.
Gabe Lezra
You know–and I’ve actually never done this before–I’m gonna call concern troll on “Daisy.”
Also,
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
J. de Bruijn
Jared Gimbel should ask himself whether the avarage american welcomes a “community center” on that spot that is dominated by a mosque. The question remains: What does islam say on building something somewhere that can be seen als insulting, offending or offensive by others?
It makes no sense when islam rejects relocation of at least the mosque part of the building. It has no rationale. Islam must be able to see that itself and must be able to answer these type of questions in public.
Jared Gimbel
There is one thing I am sure of: broken record rhetorical techniques will not work on me. I feel that I have already addressed the “insulting, offending, and/or offensive” point in a previous comment.
In case I did not make it clear enough, these are emotional and difficult-to-define terms. Humans work with them. Law codes do not recognize them. Blasphemy is different because the ability to offend God is more readily understood than the ability to offend one’s fellow man.
Here’s another thing to know about religion in general: there is no centralized view of everything, if we are talking about PEOPLE.
You can judge what the Qu’ran or what the Hadiths say as “Islam”. When you are talking about the community of believers and the mosaic of opinions possess by people in that community, you CANNOT and WILL NOT come to any conclusion or anything remotely considered “the word of God”.
Keep in mind that many of the Hebrew Prophets were APART from the public and not active players in everyday life. They were aloof, and they needed to be.
And why would I care about “the Average American” to begin with? There was this fellow named William Edward Burghardt DuBois, who believed that his underdog people–the Black Americans–would be saved by “the talented tenth” (that is, the top 10% of intelligent thinkers). As far as the world is concerned, the future belongs not to the “average person” but “the person in the talented tenth”.
And kindly don’t tell me that DuBois was wrong on account of there not being a plethora of black thinkers. There are and were plenty, but just many of them are marginalized. Almost nobody knows who Percy Lavon Julian is, despite the fact that he was probably one of the best chemists of the past century.
I know I’m getting dangerously close to elitism here, but I feel that average people can make a lot of noise but still cannot manage power over those who know better. You tell me to ask myself whether or not an average American considers it offensive. I say: why should we care?
The gods and mortals alike favor that which is strong over that which is just. Thus spoke the Athenians to the Melians in Thucydides, Book 5. It is people in power positions, working in news stations, and writing widely-read columns that are on the “strong” side of this.
Regardless of what average American considers “just” it WILL NOT muster enough power just on account of being widespread. The opinions of those in power count. Usually, these are ones that make sense. I cannot say that with confidence about the rash opinions heard all the time on the Internet and in conversation.
J. de Bruijn
Jared Gimbel answers me that “there is no centralized view of everything, if we are talking about people”, my question was : “What do islam say on building something somewhere that can be seen als insulting, offending or offensive by others?”
Gimbels reply is right, but it is only partially right. Maybe “the islam” does not exist as such, but it DO exist for every individual muslim, because otherwise, he could not submiss himself to it. One cannot submiss to something non-existential.
There is no difference between believers and non-believers when it comes to their philosophy, their world view or their ideology: they all have to go back to it when confronted with some unexpected things of a moral nature. Doesn’t matter whether you are part of the “elite” or not, this is a truth for everyone. So I still think that my question above is a good question, and also I still think that it isn’t answered as well. So, what does islam say?
J. de Bruijn
PS Rauf commented on the mosque himself for the first time in a long time : http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/opinion/08mosque.html?_r=1&hp
Jared Gimbel
Well, I CERTAINLY don’t see anything ineffective or offensive if that statement just issued.
I personally don’t hear anyone calling Augustine a sex addict, and disqualifying his sainthood. Perhaps Rauf has a past to leave behind him.
With confidence, I say that almost all deeply religious people have entertained politically incorrect ideas at one point or another.
The truth, plainly put, cannot be for everyone. If you have read Maimonides’ “Guide to the Perplexed”, he notes that religions have a simple yet on the core unbelievable versions for simple people, whereas the real truths hide deeper.
And certainly not EVERYONE is capable of issuing a Fatwa. I am not someone with that authority. In case I need to make it clear, I’m not a Muslim. I’m Jewish.
Fatwas, or opinions of Muslim leaders, are the most common way of expressing OPINIONS. People decide whether or not they are important, depending on their viewpoints. There is not a “What Islam Says” in regards to this, put rather, “What the Fatwas Say”. And there are many of them. Of all stripes. Many are acceptable and tolerant. Some are not.
Would you expect all churches to agree on everything? Certainly, they all have a piece of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre dedicated to them. (You can visit this place in Jerusalem if you’d like), but aside from core beliefs, they vary differently.
You want to know what Christianity says about my article or about Park51? Ask a number of different people with power.
You want to know what Judaism thinks? Rinse and repeat.
Same with Islam. You can start conducting research if you’d like. I highly encourage it, as I’m in college and I don’t have time.
dr.music
Rauf in an interview with Sa’da Abdul Maksoud on May 29, 2010:
“Throughout my discussions with contemporary Muslim theologians, it is clear an Islamic state can be established in more than just a single form or mold. It can be established through a kingdom or a democracy. The important issue is to establish the general fundamentals of Sharia that are required to govern.”
dr.music
WE THE FREE PEOPLE ON THE PLANET ARE HATED BY MUSLIMS AND ISLAM BECAUSE WE REFUSE TO CALL MOHAMMED HA-MESHUGGA ‘THE MAD ONE’, A ‘PROPHET’.
According to Sharia, Muslim land, once taken, can never be given back. Any mosque that is built is never to become something else. Failure to understand this will be our downfall.
There’s no divinity in Islam. There’s not even any dignity in Islam. The fact that it’s boring, stagnant, and doesn’t allow room for much individuality are really its least destructive, least regressive, least dangerous, least oppressive facets
——————————————————————-
PUREMUSLIM IS A TERM FOR A VERY VERY EVIL HUMAN BEING.INDIA PIONEERED MATHEMATHICS AND GAVE THE WORLD THE NUMER 0 AND NOW INDIA HAS PIONEERED MOSQUE DEMOLISHING AND SHOWN HOW ISLAM SHOULD BE DEALT IT’S FINAL BLOW.IT’S A SMALL START BUT A GOOD START.LET THEM BUILD MORE MOSQUES AND MORE MOSQUES.THE BACKLASH WILL BE SAVORY AND FIERCE.ISLAM IS IN IT’S DEATH RIGORS.HENCE THIS SHOUTING AND KILLING AND BURNING.MECCA IS THE HEAD-QUARTERS OF ISLAM THE MAFIA CULT STARTED BY DON-MOHA-MAD.A TOTAL LUNATIC.
500
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3953628,00.html
“RESEARCHERS LINK SCHIZOPHRENIA AND VIOLENT PSYCHOs DUE TO ISLAMIC VIELS AND BURKHAS”
‘Researchers say babies born with low vitamin D levels may have an increased risk of developing schizophrenia later in life.
‘The three-year study tested blood samples from babies in Denmark and found having low vitamin D levels doubles the risk of developing the disorder.
‘The findings could encourage pregnant women to get more sunshine or take a vitamin D supplement. {And NOT wear a burka or niqab! – dda}
‘Professor John McGrath, from the Queensland Brain Institute, says the study is further evidence of vitamin D’s link to brain development.
“Many years ago we thought it was totally implausible to prevent schizophrenia, it seemed to be such a mysterious, poorly understood group of illnesses,” he said.
“I think this new result suggests that maybe it will be possible to prevent schizophrenia.”
Now, let’s think about it. Yemen. Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states. Afghanistan. The more rigidly-Muslim Muslims, everywhere; generations of women totally covered-up whenever they go outside.The likelihood that many or most of those women are Vitamin D deficient is high; and if they’re Vitamin D deficient during pregnancy, then their babies’ brain development may be seriously compromised.
It should be noted that at the end of a news report on women being forced to wear hijab in Gaza University
the following information was included:
‘Lack of Vitamin D because of veils”
‘A Jordanian study published this week asserted that 87% of women between the ages of 18 and 70 in Jordan suffer from a lack of Vitamin D as a result of insufficient sun exposure and not enough milk consumption.
‘The researchers linked this phenomenon to wearing the hijab. ‘According to the findings, **92% of women who wear a hijab suffer from a lack of Vitamin D** ‘This figure increases to 96%, according to the survey, when it comes to women who cover their faces as well with a niqab.”
Put that information together with the results of the Danish study and it appears that those who wear the Muslim female slave rag, whatever form of it they wear, stand a very good chance of scrambling their babies’ brains. SO THE NEXT TIME YOU SEE A WOMAN IN A BURKHA REMEMBER THE CULT OF ISLAM IS FORCING WOMEN TO LITERALLY BREED VIOLENT PSCHYCOS.
dr.music
PURE MUSLIM IS A TERM FOR A VERY VERY EVIL HUMAN BEING.
INDIA PIONEERED MATHEMATHICS AND GAVE THE WORLD THE NUMER ZERO AND NOW INDIA HAS PIONEERED MOSQUE DEMOLISHING AND SHOWN HOW ISLAM SHOULD BE DEALT IT’S FINAL BLOWS……IT’S A SMALL START BUT A GOOD START. THE KHYBER PASS WAS INDIA’S CURSE. ANYWAY…. LET THEM BUILD MORE MOSQUES….AND MORE MOSQUES…. THE BACKLASH WILL BE SAVORY AND FIERCE…ISLAM IS IN IT’S DEATH RIGORS…HENCE ALL THIS SHOUTING AND KILLING AND BURNING…HAS TO HAPPEN….MECCA IS THE HEAD-QUARTERS OF ISLAM THE MAFIA CULT STARTED BY DON-MOHA-MAD….AS THE NAME SUGGESTS…A TOTAL LUNATIC.
MOSQUES ARE JUST BUILDINGS …WE WILL SOON TEAR THEM ALL DOWN .
KORANS ARE JUST WORTHLESS toilet-PAPER…WE WILL SOON BURN THEM ALL after using them to wipe out our you know what from our you know wheres.
ISLAM IS JUST A NEW SMALL-POX….WE WILL SOON STAMP IT OUT AND ERRADIATE IT FROM OUR PLANET. BLOOD WILL FLOW…BUT WHEN HAS IT NOT SINCE ISLAM WAS INVENTED IN THE CRASSNESS OF THE DESERT.
THE ERRADICATION OF ISLAM SHOULD BE CALLED OPERATION DESERT-GLASS.
READ SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY… THE FOLLOWING IS ALSO ABOUT YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN….COPY AND PASTE AND READ OFTEN AND GET PEOPLE TO READ IT TOO…
A short list of MANY murderous verses in the filthy koran:
“Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.” Koran 2:191
“Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood.” Koran 9:123
“When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them.” Koran 9:5
“Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable.” Koran 3:85
“The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.”… Koran 9:30
“Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam” Koran 5:33
“Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.” Koran 22:19
“The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them.” Koran 8:65
“Muslims must not take the infidels as friends.” Koran 3:28
“Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.” Koran 8:12
“Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels.” Koran 8:60
Mohammed couldn’t read or write, so illiteracy is Sunna. And as he was a violent warlord, violence is Sunna. Sunna : Generally applied term in Islam, denoting what is the customary practice. Article in the LookLex / Encyclopaedia.
FARSI QUOTATION FROM KOMEINI’S BOOK, TITLED “TAHIR-OL-MASAEL”.
The innocent people of all races, religions, and cultures are at war with Islam. This is the hardest and most difficult concept for people to understand. The same materials being studied by Hamas, al Qaeda, Hezbollah, and the Taliban are the exact materials being distributed across America and INDIA and everywhere that muslims reside…. and provided to innocent young Muslim children to study in order to be ‘Pure Muslim’. PURE MUSLIM IS A TERM FOR A VERY VERY EVIL HUMAN BEING.
Islam is a cult and mosques are meeting halls for evil designs. Islam has no prayers …islam has just a bunch of slogans that slander the rest of the planet’s people who are not muslim and never will be. The mafia cult of islam was started by don moha-mad in the heat and dust of the arab desert. Don moha-mad was an uneducated evil man who must have been really evil and loony to frighten the half assed arabs. Islam is an evil cult masquerading as a religion.
Soon the world court judges will call it’s bluff.
Relax.
dr.music
1. Islam is not a religion. Islam is a political, economic, and military ideology. Religion within Islam is used as a tactic to achieve the ultimate goal of Islam which is an Islamic Ummah (nation) worldwide and under Sharia law.
2. Sharia law is an all or nothing. A Muslim can’t pick and choose which parts of Sharia they desire to adhere to. 90% of Sharia law may be peaceful, but it is the 10% that innocent people must ‘fear’. This part pertains to the intolerance of other religions, the hatred of Jews, Christians, and even Muslims who do not adhere to Sharia law, and physical Jihad. All Muslims are not required to physically fight their enemies, but ‘All’ Muslims must assist in equipping and financing their brothers and sisters who are engaged in physical Jihad. For a Muslim to choose not to do so equate to him/her being an Apostate of Islam; again this is a death sentence for the accused.
3. The innocent people of all races, religions, and cultures are at war with Islam. This is the hardest and most difficult concept for people to understand. The Muslims who committed murder on 11 Sept. 2001 were doing so in the name of Islam. The 4000 plus men and women who have been murdered in Iraq and Afghanistan were killed in the name of Islam. Maj. Hassan from Ft. Hood who killed several people did so in the name of Islam. The same materials being studied by Hamas, al Qaeda, Hezbollah, and the Taliban are the exact materials being distributed across America and INDIA and everywhere that muslims reside…. and provided to innocent young Muslim children to study in order to be ‘Pure Muslim’. PURE MUSLIM IS A TERM FOR A VERY VERY EVIL HUMAN BEING.
dr.music
MOSQUES ARE JUST BUILDINGS …WE WILL SOON TEAR THEM ALL DOWN .
KORANS ARE JUST WORTHLESS toilet-PAPER…WE WILL SOON BURN THEM ALL after using them to wipe out our you know what from our you know wheres.
ISLAM IS JUST A NEW SMALL-POX….WE WILL SOON STAMP IT OUT AND ERRADIATE IT FROM OUR PLANET. BLOOD WILL FLOW…BUT WHEN HAS IT NOT SINCE ISLAM WAS INVENTED IN THE CRASSNESS OF THE DESERT.
THE ERRADICATION OF ISLAM SHOULD BE CALLED OPERATION DESERT-GLASS.
A short list of murderous verses in the filthy koran:
“Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.” Koran 2:191
“Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood.” Koran 9:123
“When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch th…em.” Koran 9:5
“Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable.” Koran 3:85
“The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.”… Koran 9:30
“Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam” Koran 5:33
“Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.” Koran 22:19
“The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them.” Koran 8:65
“Muslims must not take the infidels as friends.” Koran 3:28
“Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.” Koran 8:12
“Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels.” Koran 8:60
Mohammed couldn’t read or write, so illiteracy is Sunna. And as he was a violent warlord, violence is Sunna. Sunna : Generally applied term in Islam, denoting what is the customary practice. Article in the LookLex / Encyclopaedia.
dr.music
ISLAM MUST BE DESTROYED!!!
HOW WILL YOU CONTRIBUTE ?
A “phobia” is an irrational fear. Thus, “homophobia” is an irrational fear of homosexuality.
Which, of course, is silly on several levels. ISLAMOPHOBIA REFERS TO AN IRRATIONAL FEAR.
BUT FEAR OF ISLAM IS TOTALLY RATIONAL.
SO THE TERM ISLAMOPHOBIA IS NOT JUST SILLY, BUT IT IS MISLEADING, IN A HAZARDOUS WAY.
dr.music
A MODERATE MUSLIM IS SOMEONE WHO AGREES WITH YOU BEING BEHEADED, BUT DOESN’T DO IT HIMSELF.
Jared Gimbel
Somebody needs to take a minute to look at the colorful flowers at the top of the page.
Daysia
So true. Hoentsy and everything recognized.